When COVID has gone and the war is over, will we return to the patterns of international trade we were enjoying just a few years ago? Steve Keen says not, which puts him in the camp of anti-globalists that FT columnist Martin Wolf wrote about recently, in an article ‘The big mistakes of the anti-globalisers’. This week Phil puts some of Martin’s arguments to Steve, including the evidence that international trade has significantly boosted GDP globally and helped reduce extreme poverty. Won’t a more self-sufficient approach turn back the clock on both those achievements. Listen in for why Steve thinks times have changed for good, as we focus on sustainability over efficiency.